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feminism
July 2009 
Enlightened Post-Feminism
Zoey
I see one of my role's here (as I see my life purpose) as being stepping up and stepping out and talking about what social change might be possible through the zaadz community. I have committed my life to supporting social change around gender equality issues. To me this is all about "power and control". Riane Eisler has written extensively about this and the differences between a dominator model and a partnership model
Here are some interesting trends in North America:
- the incidence of date rape is increasing.
- the use of alcohol and drugs (roofies) to support date rape is increasing.
- partner/relationship abuse is increasing in teens and younger people. Domestic abuse workers are seeing more and more young girls getting beaten up by their boyfriends.
This is all about power and control.
I am sensing a very interesting sentiment that continuing to talk about gender issues is not "enlightened", that all of us evolved and spiritual folks here on zaadz and in other communities are way beyond this. It feels like there is a subtle cultural drift that says "We need to only hold the positive energy, let go of the anger and move on to more important issues! "
I agree that the time for the anger of early feminism is past. In my opinion, we still live in a dominator modeled society and world (see Riane Eisler's work) as evidenced by the structure of most of our organizations and systems. I believe that we are moving towards a partnership model and feel that we have quite a long way still to go. I believe that until the world has fully adopted a partnership model, we need to keep talking about all of the ways a dominator model shows up and especially gender issues.
So, it is a "both/and" for me, we need to both continue to talk about gender issues and hold a higher view where there is no such thing as inequality. This is a paradox!
I thought the following article published in "Socialist Worker" was very interesting.
http://socialistworker.org/2005-1/539/539_07_PostFeminism.shtml
"Post-feminism" or plain old sexism
By Sharon Smith | April 15, 2005 | Page 7
"POST-FEMINISM" is the phrase du jour among mainstream political pundits, often accompanied by derogatory comments toward anyone who continues to complain that women lack equality.
U.S. society has entered a "post-feminist" phase, a level playing field, according to this group of commentators. Women's oppression belongs to a bygone era, and ideas of women's liberation are merely outdated relics of that era. If anything, these pundits inform us, the women's movement of the 1960s went too far and now must be reigned in. This is the typical rationale for curbing abortion rights.
But more insidious is the repeated accusation that feminists have created a "victim" consciousness among women by inflating statistics to exaggerate problems such as rape and sexual objectification. Without evidence, these claims have gained the status of conventional wisdom through sheer repetition.
Syndicated columnist Kathleen Parker, for example, regularly ridicules the problem of date rape, with comments such as: "The biggest myth that won't die is that one of four college women is raped on campuses each year...If 25 percent of Daddy's little girls were being sexually assaulted at college, there wouldn't be any girls on campus."
The figure Parker holds in such contempt is based on a study conducted in the 1980s by Ms. Magazine, surveying 6,000 students at 32 colleges which found that one in four college women had been a victim of rape or attempted rape--a figure now accepted even by the U.S. Department of Justice. Furthermore, less than one in every three rapes and sexual assaults were reported to law enforcement officials in 1996.
Date rape is not a figment of the imaginations of "hysterical" feminists, but an indisputable reality for women in the U.S. Nevertheless, in the age of "post-feminism," demands for women's rights are deemed a colossal act of self-indulgence.
Those who are offended by images of women in popular culture must be either pro-censorship prudes or outmoded feminists born without a sense of humor. After all, who but the most bitter feminist could fail to be amused by the plot line of Pamela Anderson's new Fox television show, which finds the former Baywatch babe starring as a busty bimbo working in a bookstore? (And the show's called Stacked!)
Those who are irritated by the show's promotional ad (Anderson posing suggestively atop a pile of books, as her silicone-enhanced breasts defy the force of gravity) might be jarred by beauty standards and sexual ideals manufactured on Wall Street and in Hollywood yet absorbed by women throughout society.
"Manufactured" is no exaggeration, given that 9.2 million cosmetic surgery procedures, from breast augmentation to Botox injections, were performed in 2004--mainly on women--according to the American Society of Plastic Surgeons, up 24 percent from 2000. Ironically, this rise in cosmetic surgery coincides with a 10 percent decline in medically necessary reconstructive surgery procedures in 2004 alone, due to declining insurance coverage.
The beauty ideal, moreover, has changed drastically from the buxom Marilyn Monroe (size 12-14) to today's undernourished supermodel (size 2-4). A woman between the ages of 18 and 34 today has just a 1 percent chance of being as thin as a supermodel.
As modeling executive Jennifer Venditti explained in a 2001 Cosmopolitan article, "The smaller the sample, the better [the clothing] drapes...It's almost like the body is not present." This can be a problem for human beings. Yet this image permeates popular culture with unrealistic images that negatively affect self-esteem among females from a very young age.
Thanks to these airbrushed beauty standards, 80 percent of American women are dissatisfied with their appearance, according to the National Eating Disorder Association, contributing to the incidence of anorexia and bulimia currently suffered by up to 10 million women in the U.S. By the age of 10, 80 percent of girls in the U.S. have already tried to diet to lose weight.
"Post-feminism" is a term brimming with hypocrisy--promoted primarily by those who oppose women's rights--turning women's bodies over to the control and judgment of others. The need for women's liberation is far from antiquated--it is, in fact, thoroughly modern".
What do you think????
namaste,
Zoey
www.positivelyoutrageouswomen.com
Access: Public
Holy anger is the term used by K. Louise Schmidt in her book Transforming Abuse. A term to describe the outrage that I feel - many feel - at the injustice in the world today - children, women and men being raped, abandoned, starved, exploited. I endeavour to feel that rage, to face it and use the energy of it to keep my heart open and moving forward.
My view of feminism is about love and loving ourselves as women and loving the men in our lives too, enough to honestly look at the patterms that keep us from enlightenment. Patterns that benefit some and harm others. The statistics are clear - every day in the world, women are beaten, raped and killed JUST FOR BEING WOMEN.
To not acknowledge those in the margins (women, children, people of color, indigineous peoples, poverty) is to pretend that 'they created that reality' and to pretend that those in power do not benefit from their position. This is part of the 'secret' mythology that annoys me - that I see as dangerous. It saddens me to hear women of privilege or token women discount the reality of most women in the world today.
Victoria,
I love your personal definition of feminism and the way you shine the light on “patterns”. Focusing on “patterns”, takes the discussion out of the personal and into a broader view of the patterns prevalent in our society.
Z
Zoey:
Thanks for posting this…yes I think there is a misnomer that if we focus on gender issues we are somehow “raging feminists” I am going to link you to a gender discussion posted by cosmicbdog on how there is a new perspective that needs to be lovingly accepted by the new energy coming in.
See what you think about this…his girlfriend had been harassed by a man on zaadz. He thinks men should embrace their feminine side…most interesting…
Would like to know what you think as it ties in with some of the things you bring up!!!
Love,
Aley
Aley,
Absolutely!
At the risk of being totally redundant and cutting and pasting all of the flex/flow between the dominator model and the partnership model from Riane Eisler's book; the partnership model is exactly what cosmicdog's blog is about, this is what I have been calling the higher, more enlightened perspective, there is balance and partnership between male and female energies, between the Divine Feminine and the Divine Masculine in each of us and in the world. This is exactly it! In our world today, is there planetary balance? Are most people individually balanced? I think not and this is evidenced in so many ways, gender inequality simply being one of them!
What is very interesting to me in this is that for some women, it has taken reading a male perspective to get what I thought I had been saying all along. There is good learning in this for me :).
So, being the pragmatist, how does this happen? How do we individually and collectively re-balance the earth's energies? I say by doing a “marking” ie asking and naming what the current situation is and then each of us doing our personal work (including shadow work) as well as choosing on the basis of passion and interest how we wish to focus our energies to collectively support the re-balancing.
I am very clear on how I am doing this and I am very clear that part of what I do is talk about my experience of all this with others. I am also very clear that each of us is unique and has a right to a difference of opinion and freedom of speech.
What is also interesting to me Aley, is that the whole cosmicdog conversation it seems (and I have to admit I didn't read it all word for word) got started because a woman was being harassed by a man …. on zaadz.
Even in zaadz, there is a dominator model being played out.
Let's name it, bring the light to it and then support a culture shift to a full on partnership model.
I believe each of us needs to ask, what is my personal responsibility here? And, as a good neighbour in zaadz, what is my “good neighbour” responsibility?
In more traditional cultures, when a man got out of line (ie harassed or abused a woman for example or otherwise acted outside the overt or cover social mores), the other men collectively would ostrasize, shame and exclude the “misbehaving man”. Ths would also happen with the women. So, on zaadz, what are the overt and covert mores????? Are these supportive of a partnership way or a dominator way?
There is a whole body of work and action arising around social justice and restorative justice using community healing circles.
I wonder how this would work and play out in zaadz?
Z
aargh, tried to add a long comment and it didn't take.
in brief, we have good rules of conduct here which are enforced quickly whenever any kind of abuse is reported but it will still be non-ideal because people are not perfect, even those with good intentions. a kind community is vulnerable to predatory people. i've seen better and more caring ways of dealing with people in pods than i usually see in online discussions, so i think there's more of an aim for mutual respect but we still have work to do, individually and as a community.
Nicole,
Thanks for this!
So, I am hearing the social/cultural mores on zaadz include:
- mutual respect
- kindness
- unconditional regard and respect for difference
What else?
Z
I think that because of the interest in Integral theory and Andrew Cohen's “Evolutionary Enlightenment”, there is also a move to more evolved, integrated living (see my post in the wisdomheart pod which refers to a thread in the I-I pod where this is illustrated)
HAH! this conversation is so appropriate…I recently turned my profile into a siren for the people who have used zaadz for the wrong reasons. I got motivated to inspire change after reading about cosmicbdog friend getting harassed…totally lame.
From my perspective true growth is not about haveing a set of rules and ousting members once they break them. The kicking out of a person of a community should be the final step…our purpose as healers should be to help prevent a person from getting to the point where he needs to be pushed out.
This is of course usually most effectively done with compassion. You must first know and love your enemies… before you can help them to transition to a higher level. And the fact is most feminists I've met believe the alpha male is the enemy they have to fight against. But negativity is what killed the hippies.
Instead use the intensity, clairty , energy of anger and try to grow out of the rest of the unhappy traits because they only fight fire with fire yeah?
The alpha male is a person looking to be happy and views the exploitation and degredation of women as a viable means to realize this happiness. As members of the conscious minority haveing lessened egos we realize that control and domination are not viable ways of realizeing happiness. They cause diminishing, superficial gradification to the ego and nothing more.
So while one method is discussing the problem of male behavior…the alternative method is talking about the beauty and value of women. People should share stories about how the women in their life have changed their life for the better. These approaches are what moves people to change.
One More thing is we don't want to promote ay kind of victim hood in violated women. If we do this we perpetuate the suffering in women even further by giving them a negative image as an identity.
So three tools in summary…1.point out how male behavior does not promote happiness in anyone. 2. point out the beauty and value of the feminine, 3. show women how to effectively cope with and recognize aggressive male behavior.
Hi seatgrabber:
I just joined Zoey's network and I couid not agree more with you, male beahavior does not promote happiness, I am a proud to be feminist male, and have discovered feminism last year. Although I believe I supported the cause all my life. I don't believe in being phoney in a relationship, and my wife can prove it, (even thought we are seperated now :( ) You mentioned about some mentioning some stories about great women, here's mine.
Nevertheless, she is still number one in my lfie, I never even thought about cheating on here, like my first wife did; I supported everything she wantd to do in her life. She wanted to make and sell baskets, so we both took a basket weaving class, she wanted to sell candles, so I was the only male at the candle party at her sister's house, and I loved it!
She told me she always wanted a guy to braid her long hair, so we both took a hair braiding class, she was my model as I learned how to do french braids. Diana was one that loved pedicures, I tried but she was much than I could be, but I used to paint her toenails and in fact, I started painting mine a number of years ago LOL and got some great compliments from women. Last year as I discovered the feminim way of life, I also took some classes in floral design, and made her some gorgeous floral arrangements and even worked for Ka Blooms before they closed down in the late Fall :(
I love to rock climb and she even went out to the mountains with me, but she didn't enjoy the physicalness of rock climbing. So she became a RYT from Kriplou in Lennox and I supported her decision to take the 30 day training and she became certified and teaches yoga and pilates.' Oh yes, when she wanted to become certified in pilates.' We both took the weekend course, along with about 50 other women, I was the only male.
I will always love her as she does me, I want her to be happy and if not with me then someone else. Thanks for letting me share this with you.
((((((((((huggs))))))))))))
Love,
George :)
Hey George!
Really nice story I hope to find a partner like that one day! Until then I will work on feeling complete without one.
I also wanted to give some pop culture examples of finding a synergistic male female balance… The movie “blades of glory” is all centered about this theme will ferril is a great zen master.
Also the movie “team america world police” offers another perspective on balance of masculine and feminine…explained via the geopolitical construct of the war on terror…
“We're reckless arrogant stupid dicks. And the Film Actors Guild are pussies. And Kim Jong Il is an asshole. Pussies don't like dicks because pussies get fucked by dicks, but dicks also fuck assholes. Assholes who just wanna shit on everything. Pussies may think that they can deal with assholes their way, but the only thing that can fuck an asshole is a dick, with some balls. The problem with dicks is that sometimes they fuck too much, or fuck when it isn't appropriate, and it takes a pussy to show 'em that. But sometimes pussies get so full of shit that they become assholes themselves. Because pussies are only an inch and a half away from assholes. I don't know much in this crazy crazy world. But I do know that if you don't let us fuck this asshole, we're gonna have our dicks and our pussies all covered in shit.”
The Dick, Pussy, Asshole analogy is a humorous example but a very deep meditation on aggressive vs. passive vs. sadomasocistic behavioral dynamics. Or how men and women can help each other to bring about a better world.
As a white, almost 50 year old feminist from a rural Canadian background with about 30 years of work in social justice along with a university degree in Sociology and Women's Studies, I will give my best to curiously examine our musings so far on this thread…..
Post-feminism as a political position statement may be trying to say we are past the point of where feminist theory and practice can add value and provide a useful framework to make sense out of our world. I beg to differ. The contents of this thread provide practical evidence to support a compelling need for further feminist analysis. Now, I know I am getting more than a few silver strands but I am not getting a deep belly chuckle from the movie quote from “team america world police” and I do love a good laugh! I suppose it is partly because the topic of violence against women and date rape is serious stuff.
As Zoey points out, date rape (or the reporting of date rape) is on the rise. Yet, in 10 short posts and 48 hours, the discussion has gone from examining the contextual environment of violence against women to female/male energy balancing to something about male and female sexual organs - with a small sprinkling of analysis and musing about how we can address violence against women and the issues of power and control thrown in for good measure. How can that be? I would like to suggest it is because if we met Zoey's questions straight on, we would have to examine our own use and misuse of power and control to be able to answer her questions. This means we must get up close and vulnerable with ourselves. We might have to admit to intended and unintended behaviours that support violence against women. Once we do that, then we might feel compelled to become accountable for changing our attitudes and behaviours — much easier to slide into movie land or gender balancing. Note: feminist theory and practice seems to me to comes from a different philosophical framework from theories about feminine and masculine energy balancing. For example, a feminist question about male and female energy might be ” Who gets to decide what is male or female energy anyway?” The feminist question is about the power of naming and decision-making rather than balancing our female and masculine energy.
What if we were to pick up on an earlier part of this thread and examine a closest-to-home community and the contextual of violence against women in the Zaadz' community. What is our perspective on the power dynamics in our Zaadz community? How are things working? What kinds of power are available and afforded to individuals and groups of individuals on Zaadz? Are there any informal or formal rules of conduct that support covert or overt misuse of power? Where are good examples of partnership behaviour on Zaadz? What protocols have been developed to address violence against women on Zaadz? How does power and control impact beyond male and female relations in the zaadz community? What do we mean by a “safe community”? Yes, these are feminist questions not post-feminist questions:) These questions and the answers to these questions are for all Zaadz community members whether female, male, black, white, aboriginal, rich, poor, lesbian, gay, straight, young, old, working class, professional, able bodied, or physically challanged - for a starters.
many thanks
Well Honey I think Your takeing yourself too seriously to be effective although I think you made some good points. I take the issue seriously too but I don't take myself so seriously that i miss wisdom when I see it.
So here is the thing… You would lessen violence against women if you understood and admitted the relative stregnths and weakness of both sexes. This “power and control” feminazi nonsense is the kind of stuff that trys to turn women into alpha male behavior as some solution to oppression. Great…is it not regression to kill what is progressive in the male energy or to discount the value of yielding in the female…?
A greater balance is needed and balance is found by createing a dialogue about what is positive and negative about each of the sexes. THIS IS HOW YOU PREVENT VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN AT THE LEVEL OF CAUSE AS OPPOSED TO ONLY DEALING WITH IT ON THE LEVEL OF EFFECT…teeeheee
So congratatulations on your degrees and everything so perhaps I have to gooblydygook it up for you to see the value of the metaphor: First lets substitute dicks, pussies and assholes…for more words that “serious” people would be comfortable with… assertive, passive and sadomasochistic personality styles. Assertive - tends to be male, Passive- tends to be female, and sadomasochistic may be the extreme dysfunction of both approaches. Now lets break it down…
“Pussies don't like dicks because pussies get fucked by dicks”- passive (typically women) tend to see the assertive (typically male) personality types as destructive becuase they are frequently taken advantage of as a result of their passivity.
“but dicks also fuck assholes.”-assertive personality types are needed to counter act the immediate threats of destructive sadomasochistic energies.
“Pussies may think that they can deal with assholes their way, but the only thing that can fuck an asshole is a dick, with some balls.”- Sometimes the feminine believes that she can deal with a manipulative and destructive behaviors with by careing for the perpetrator. Howevr once a destructive force has reached a certain amount of momentum force may be nessesary first proceeded with a more healing energy.
“The problem with dicks is that sometimes they fuck too much, or fuck when it isn't appropriate, and it takes a pussy to show 'em that”- sometimes the overbearing approach of the male is not appropriate for a desired outcome. Sometimes yielding is more powerful than any strong demonstration of power. And this is the power of the feminine.
In conclusion:
If peace is your outcome then you must understand the role that each energy plays in the totality of the whole. the “Dicks pussies and assholes” is one such framework. If you have an appreciation of this complex dance…you are less likely to promote simpilistic answers and thus further contribute to the problem. When the dicks have a greater appreciation of how their dicks can be powerful and destructive- they will use them in a more contructive way…same for the pussies. In short to understand these dynamics can facilitate a greater peace by understanding the role of different approaches to the greater whole- as well as facilitates growth as each styles has a greater appreciation for the stregnths and limitations of each approach.
But the consequences of academic snobbery should be the subject of a future and sepearate thread.
-mutual respect
- kindness
- unconditional regard and respect for difference
-Safe community to voice opinions
Okay I here what everyone is saying (zoey, Terill and seatgrabber (Mike) about how feminism or post modern feminism is used in society today. It appears that some uncaring men use the “macho ism” of date rape and sexual abuse to control and push women down into a lower stage. These men use their physical power and rape during sexual encounters and then blame the usage of alcohol or even drugs for the blaming force.
Once raped the women has to endure a “cross examination process” that favors the rapier than the person being raped. Often pressure is used against the women to change her story because the rapier was part of a sports club team that is part of the university he belongs to, and processing his name would “hurt his potential “pro career or status. Is this a safe community for college women on campus? I think not because the colleges and universities fail to report the attempted rapes for fear of losing students entering their campuses. Sure they hire campus police, conduct “Take Back the Night” marches and attend the annual showing of Eve Ensler's “Vagina Monologues” during V-Day Week in February, but overall I would hope it is working hard to end rape overall.
If the biggest fear of all men is being embarrassed by women and women's biggest fear is “being attacked and bodily hurt by men,” there are definitely differences between men and women that need to be addressed. Men can go home and feel the temporary sting of being embarrassed and maybe become more angrier towards women because of that, but for women who get raped, the sting is much severe, more humiliating, and psychologically dreadful that some endure for many years and some do not recover and loss their sexual energy and relationships because of it, how sad this casues such a traumic shock to some women.
As a man I would have no idea what some women must feel like every day with the fear of being attacked and raped as they continue to date men while in college campuses, except if I were to imagine all the men who are in prison where female companionship is vacant and some men will resort to violence and rape the weaker man in their cells. Does this all goes back to the “strong survive and the weak perish” in this earth, and we should can we do to change this for all humanity.
If we continue on to the business world, men use their authority to demeanor women in the business world, sexual discrimination and sexual harassment are big issues and court cases that companies are fearful about. The women has to carefully document every encounter and keep records if she wants to press charges again my uncaring men who again use their power to influence authority over women. Is this a safe community for women who have to go through a long and embarrassing Human Resource policy before the accuser is punished? I think not.
Why has not the USA developed a sexual discrimination policy for all government organizations? It becomes stuck in Senate discussions and never moves ahead yet we hear of unprocessed cases of military men in Iraq who rape military and non military women time after time without any reports of the crime. Is this a safe community in the military?, I think not. Most women will not report the rape crimes for fear of losing their military status on the battlefield and this is a shame and saddens me.
What I believe feminism should do for us is to bridge the gap between men and women, so that more men will be able to understand the feelings and emotions of women. For example, in Inga Muscio's book, “Cunt” she describes how she was in the sixth grade learning about how her menstrual cycle was going to affect her or if it already did for most young women. Some women have the “blood parties” where the young women who is going through her first period gets dressed in a red dress and all her family and friends through her a party and bake her a red cake to honor the special time in her approaching women hood. Inga mentions that when the nurse explained to all the young girls about menstrual cycles in the school, all the boys were outside playing games and having an extra long recess. Yet, when the men get married later on in life, the way they handle their spouse's PMS troubles is to run for the hills, because men would not understand what it must feel like to have cramps, and pain once a month for a week or more at a time. The young women try to hide their shame, the uncaring men just don't believe in “women's trouble” and think it will just pass innocently and wonder why some women are in so much pain to make them dinner.
Why don't we allow the young boys to be educated about women's menstrual cycles at a young age? Some parents would argue is this sex education because a boy can't have a menstrual cycle or have periods of bleeding. Baloney!
Women have to spend more money on sanitary napkins each month by purchasing a box of tampons at $7 a box or ten boxes a year. Plus having to carry around this extra tampons in their purse, another 'feminine” accessory that woman use to carry within them at all times and some men who shudder to use for themselves, yet that is slowly changing.
I don't think we should feminism to discuss the sexual differences between men and women, some are obvious and unchanging. Instead I think the focus should be on how do we balance the two genders into a mutual understanding that one gender, the controlling one has always had the influence and that is slowly reversing. Men should look at themselves as feminists and try to help the women who have been victimized over the many years as the ones who perform the most housework and care for the children in the home, get paid the lesser of the two for performing the same job as men, being treated as stereotypically female and the focus of all the jokes about not knowing enough about sports, not knowing what goes on when a car needs repair. Instead we place the women in boxes and give them cosmetics to put on as a mask they wear to face the world, shopping, hair salons and hair colors that make a women feel special and just spending men's money as there outlet for being a women. Why are all women dieting to look better in a man's world? Why is there so much pressure on women to be “slaves to fashion?” check your local newspaper each week and the media or even the grocery store fliers, many ads are focused on the women shopper, colors that appeal to more women than men. Women are often pictured shopping for groceries in the household because the traditional role of mommy is to be with the kids while daddy is busy working his big important job.
Media advertising against imperfections on a women's complexion, her laugh lines, her wrinkles, her aging, the media bombards women with these images that in order to look like a movie actress with perfect skin you should use this product which costs the company 1/10 of the original cost to make, and may not even do what it says it does because everyone believes it and will not admit it if it doesn't. The super models who model clothes made for a super model and not everyone else, so we have a problem in schools with eating disorders and anorexia and young girls as old a ten years old going on a diet to look like a model in Elle magazine. The biggest problem I see with fashionable women is that they use the magazine photo of a fashion model as their “role model” for them to copy their look, yet most men would never use a paper cut out as their fashion role model, nor even diet to look like that.
The only reason I think men dress as good as they do is because women have been there all along the way to make sure that they look good, yet the women are never acknowledged for this.
So what is the solution to feminism? A term misused by men and women. Some would say that all men want from women is sex, sex, and more sex. From a feminist standpoint, I am not attracted to feminism for that reason. Being still married and separated, I may see the image of beautiful and gorgeous women on the web and in my women's and feminist groups but I do not use this passion to undermined the emotions of women to get to know them better for romance, no, because I know they only want to learn more about women's rights, feminism and maybe volunteer for a cause they believe in like rape prevention, pro choice, sexual discrimination the same as I do. I will not spoil that sacred relationship with women for that. That for me is what feminism means to me.to be able to help in the causes of women and learn more about the feminist philosophy and help me develop as a whole person and not some fake sitting in a “all boy's club” drinking beer and watching football and hooting and hollering at the Maxim ads. Peace and thanks for listening to me babbling.
Holy Moly,
This whole thread is a microcosm of the macrocosm!
I find myself getting triggered in so many ways on so many levels. I find it difficult to witness my witness witnessing (integral theory babbling on my part).
Hmmm, not sure where to go with this as I am feeling that anger and disagreement fuels the beast so to speak.
I value the ability for all folks to honour and respect a difference of opinion and use respectful communication.
Seatgrabber (Mike), I have to say, from my perspective, being addressed as “honey” or a similarily dismissive title is just one of the ways that historically women have been minimized, invalidated and disregarded. I am thinking that you are feeling that you need to use shock value instead of good communication? Am I misreading this?
Z
Maybe we need to concentrate on one issue at a time and spend solely on that. I apologize as I got caught up in the excitement of something new. Having been a member of 43 things for over a year now, there is a different format we follow. We usually don't have the unique intelligent conversations as this microcosm is going. We seem to have no focus on specifics and we end going in random tangents.
I too find the four letter words extremely nasty however, the word “Cunt” is the name of a book that I find amazing and very outspoken. Why can't we use the words “penis” and “vagina” and “anus” instead of their corresponding slang terms?; they are women who read these comments and may be shocked at the language that Mike use s and feel unsafe in this community, just a thought.
I would like to learn new ways of communicating within the feminine community to represent my value instead of the non sensual babble I seem to be spewing sometimes, please forgive my excitement and joy of the last (very long and somewhat confusing) comment I have made. Peace.
((((((((((((((huggs)))))))))))))))
Love,
George :)
This discussion is important, and I'm so glad its unfolding here. However, I'm stepping in at a slightly different level.
Mike? I think you make some wonderful points. I also think that they risk being lost entirely in your language and way of expressing yourself. Please have a little respect for the mores of this larger community. It's fine if you go ahead and write on our own blog in this fashion, but please be mindful that this is Zoey's space. If you need a reminder, please look at our Terms of Use:
“By accepting this agreement, you acknowledge that you are entering our space with reverence, compassion, respect for yourself, our fellow members, and the law, and a desire to grow and to give to the world.
To protect the sanctity of our space, should you choose to act in a manner inconsistent with these ideals, we reserve the right to terminate your account.”
I understand completely that your writing comes from the desire to grow and to inspire growth in others, but I also believe, firmly, that you could be more respectful of, and behave with more reverence toward, Zoey's home on Zaadz.
Whew, it has taken me a long time to respond to this very interesting discussion, partly because I have been away and partly because I have needed time and space to process.
What I have come to is that I can hold two paradoxical views and experienced responses at one time. I wish I knew how to visually draw a line and do columns here but I don't so here goes. For simplicity sake I will label these two views with charge neutral (I hope) words, calling one view “lilly” and one view “orchid”. This may seem unnecessary and goofy but, too bad, I hope my reasons for it will become clear.
So, the “lilly” view: I recently read an article about a comic of indo-Canadian origin who has people rolling in the aisles laughing. His schtick? He makes fun of people of East Indian and Asian origin and they (folks of these ethnicities) love it. In the article, it was asked, why isn't this racist and the answer was that it was because he was making fun of his own ethnic group, it would have been racist for some one of a different ethnicity to use similar jokes. So, when George talked about being a male feminist and as much George as I respect you and the work you do, it felt patronizing. I do not know and can not speak about the lived and felt experience of being a woman of colour, a man, a transgendered person and as much as I may try to understand and empathize, I can not claim their experience.
Mike, your words, particularly the use of profane descriptions of body parts struck me as a physical assault. My lived experience is one of being objectified and broken down into body parts many times. This is experienced as being in an in-person conversation with a man and having his eyes glued to my chest, not my face, by being called words and given discriptions that reduce me to what feels like a non-human, non-feeling collection of bumps and orifices. When I was about 13 years old, this was kind of flattering but I soon realized that being viewed like this and spoken about like this was anything but flattering. It feels objectifying, minimizing, hurtful, dissmissive of my intellegence and like the “old way”. Mike, I also found your comments to be attention grabbing and out of context!
Aley, when you spoke about a more evolved and enlightened view, this too felt patronizing. I felt that in a subtle way, my words and my opinions were being invalidated and “made wrong”, that I wasn't being enlightened or evolved or integrated or integral by talking about victimhood or abuse.
I will say more about this later, for me it is a “both/and”. We both can and in fact I think need to hold discussions about real life (current lived reality of women, abuse, date rape etc) and hold a higher view and vibration to allow for emerging energies. To me, our natural world will always be and needs to be polarized and relative. “If the valley filled up the mountains would disappear”. I contrast polarity with duality which I agree can be defined as the “destructive illusion of separation”. Let us not confuse the natural organic dynamic of polarizing to stabilize and bring equilibrium with that of duality.
Now, the “orchid” view: each of us, me, Victoria, Mike, George, Terrill, Aley, Nicole, Siona have spoken from our lived experience of our current story. If one stands back and reads through all the posts again, we say so much about our own wounding, about our world view, about our shadows and in this, ahhhhh, I have so much compassion and respect and give a big thank you of gratitude. If I “read and reflect” on what I wrote, I can see my attachments, my hurts, my blind spots, my need to be right, my ego! It all matters and non of it matters.
I am of the opinion that we all need to be gentle with each other. We are all growing and unfolding and evolving and enlightening and doing the best we can with this. We have polarity within concentric and evolving circles and this dynamic contributes to the evolution of all.
I own these words as my lived experience of the “both/and”.
namaste,
Zoey
I want to apologize. I imagine I just got caught up in all the excitement of a new web site that deals with feminist issues. I didn't mean to be condescending, I was just trying to mingle into the crowd. My experience with feminist and women's groups have allowed me to read about the experiences, your right Zoey, reading about something and actually doing it are two different things. Next time I will move slower. Again, thank you for the invite and hope I can be productive on your pod.
Peace and Love,
George ;)
I was plain disgusted encountering the kind of foul language and description used by mike? for the first time here at zaadz. I am very much for free speech but not that demeans, dehumanizes and desensetizes our healthy sense of respect for all people, color and gender. We already get too much of that in everyday media. I would certainly prefer to have personal control in deleting such posts man or woman in my space.
Susmita: My thought process around Mike was much as Zoey's. My smaller self felt condescended to, objectified, and demeaned by his language and apparent attitude; the post comes across as disparaging and insulting towards women and doesn't speak that highly of men, either. My larger, more explansive self, though, couldn't help but laugh at his particular attempts at attention-getting and ire-raising; he seems no less damaged a soul than anyone else, and, too, oddly disconnected and separate from the richer dialogue and reaching-toward-understanding that the rest of the voices here seem to be engaged in.
In any case, I'm sympathetic to the smaller-self wounds, and I did offer to delete his posts if Zoey felt they should be removed. She declined, so for the time being they are up, but I very much understand your wishes to have control over the comments left in your blog. I'd hope that this community would listen to each other–and that, say, Mike would remove his posts if asked–but again, I can understand the desire. I'll see what we can do from the tech side.
Much love, and a deep bow to you all…
Wonderful comments all!
Ahhh, Siona, you are talking about your larger and smaller self, I choose to use “charge neutral” words “lilly” and “orchid” to describe similar states and I did this for a reason. In my belief system “smaller/larger” imply a good/bad status, which to me is hierarchical and the old way of the dominator model. My intention in chosing “flower” words is that there is no implied hierarchy, that we can include in ever increasing concentric circles all our selves, rather than try to diminish or transcend. This goes back to my polarity comments, to fully own our light and our shadow is to have wisdom in between!
George, thank you for your ownership of responsibility for your comments. It is this kind of discussion and communication and openness and vulnerability that I think can actually start to support social change. Thank you for your vulnerability George and thank you so much for your contributions to this discussion!
Yes, Siona offered to delete Mike's comments and I said keep them in for exactly the reasons you mention Susmita. Perhaps you and I being honest about our felt and lived response may in some way help to create an understanding for others about how it feels to be a woman in our larger culture and society when the popular media objectifies, dissects and reduces women to body parts. I believe there is a huge, deep, ages old pain of being a woman that needs to be healed before our planet can evolve and enlighten!
namaste,
Zoey
I'm lost Zoey. I have no idea where you get the idea I said this? I looked at my post and did not see anything like this and most certainly would bever want to make you feel invalidated as to your opinions or feelings. I know very little about integral theory, please let me know where I have given you this impresion so I can at least address the mis-communication.
Aley, when you spoke about a more evolved and enlightened view, this too felt patronizing. I felt that in a subtle way, my words and my opinions were being invalidated and “made wrong”, that I wasn't being enlightened or evolved or integrated or integral by talking about victimhood or abuse.
Blesings,
Aley
Aley,
My apologies, I misinterpreted what you said and in fact you did not use the words that I included above, your words were
“I am going to link you to a gender discussion posted by cosmicbdog on how there is a new perspective that needs to be lovingly accepted by the new energy coming in” and I interpreted that as you wanting to teach me a new perspective LOL! I am so glad that you cleared this up for me! Thank you. Just shows the limitations of the written word and a brain in “reactiivity mode” ie my “lilly” brain at the time!
Z
Oh good…I only wanted to inform others that this topic was being synchronistically discussed by men.
You certainly do not need to be taught anything about gender issues by me,and I never want anyone to think I am trying to persuade them about anything..
Kindness is my by-word. Sorry if it appreared otherwise and thanks for letting me know..
Blessings,
Aley
Aley, thanks for making the synchronistic connection and yes, kindness is your by-word.
Z
Thanks Zoey for your compliments, I am not afraid to admit when I am wrong. I only want to work for the good of women and men to live in harmony and I believe that feminism is one of the keys to open these doors for both genders.
I would also want to have open discussions on what men can do to become better feminists and how we can empower young women who may lack the confidence and wisdom to be all they can be, to dream big and not look down at themselves.
Zoey how did you do this, become a confident and sucessful leader and mentor for women and men?
(((((((((((((huggs)))))))))))))
Love,
george :)
George,
Are you honestly asking me about my journey? :)
Z
Yes, not something you have already written about, something you can share about why feminism is so passionate to you? why do love being a life coach so much, and why do you love your life and what things made an impact on your life to get this far? Finally, what do you see for the future life? If this is too personal and you care not to answer I will understand, I just wanted to hear your response and not something you already written about, just an everyday conversation if someone came up to you and asked you these questions, what would you tell them.
If will give my repsonses after someone else comments, if you like.
(((((((((((((((huggs)))))))))))))))))
Love,
George :)
I guess, the simplest way to answer this is by summing up what I think my life has been about to date and why I believe I was born in this body in this time. Seeing it in this way, helps me to make sense of my life experiences and the experiences of those close to me from a macro perspective.
I have had many life experiences, some extraordinarily painful not just for myself but my family too and others extraordinarily wonderful for the same group. I think of Joseph Campbell's writing about “the hero's journey” and some of the Christian mystical writing about the dark night of the soul. I came through the dark night of my soul and feel that I was touched by the grace of forgiveness. I also believe that what my life is about is challenging the status quo. I believe that the status quo is “the dominator model” and I believe that the whole planet would be served by transitioning to the “partnership way”. I am passionate about supporting women as a life and business coach as I know so many women who are disconnected from their own inner wholeness and vibrancy, who are so amazing and talented and wonderful and don't experience all of this in their own lives I am passionate about supporting women to connect with their soul, their spirit, their spirituality, their essential wholeness. I am also the mom of three daughters and I have seen and experienced some of the things happening in the worlds of young women these days. I also care deeply about the next seven generations and want to do everything I can to leave this planet a better place than it was when I arrived through the very simple actions of my life.
I also feel that the time for “male priests” is past and I mean that metaphorically and one can substitute the word guru for priest or leader for priest etc. In fact I feel that the role of guru, priest, priestess, leader etc is past and that we are moving into the time and realm of “personal sovereignty within collective community” ie we don't need an external anyone to tell us what to believe and do and we internally self adjust, self select and choose to act in be in ways that are in service to the greater good of all. So, it is the both/and again, I believe that the time has come for all of us to both act from a place of personal sovereignty and move from “me to we”.
I could go on and on, I am on abit of a riff…. but want to check in with you George, is this answering what you were wondering?
Hugs,
Z
If a visitor in your pleasant smelling home stinks up the place where is the real problem?…
and I suppose the real question is can you meet the challange without stinkiness? …
HMMM…I don't know…I'm just a monkey…when I get mad I throw poop!! :) ;o ;);( !!!
Hmmmm, very interesting, I will ponder….
Thanks for staying engaged.
Z
Thanks Zoey:
I relaize your passion for supporting women, your daughters and family, and your role as a life coach to support women. Spiritually, amazing talented and yet they don't know the gifts they have. How do you provide caring, kindness and support for these women?
You also mentioned, “ I also feel that … we don't need an external anyone to tell us what to believe and do and we internally self adjust, self select and choose to act in be in ways that are in service to the greater good of all. So, it is the both/and again, I believe that the time has come for all of us to both act from a place of personal sovereignty and move from “me to we”. What exactly do you mean going from me to we? Do you mean the time now is to focus on the support of our community as a whole? How can feminism support this? I believe in God, our Creator, others may believe in something else, are you saying we don't need to keep believing in something because we already know the answers allready? I find that confusing as I don't know all the answers, I don't even know how to state the questions.
I want to learn how to support and be a mentor, leader, friend to women who don't believe in themselves as you do, I am not a life coach, yet, how can I do this as a compassionate and caring man. Who can be sensitive to the needs of others. Am I making any sense of this?
(((((((((((huggs))))))))))))
Love,
George :)
Yes, I can see how I was confusing!
I mean that I believe that we can stop relying on some one outside of ourselves to tell us what is right and wrong and what to believe in and not believe in. I am not saying that there is no God :)
I believe that feminism plays a role in from “me to we” in terms of social change and social action. I ask myself what is my personal responsibility to myself and what is my personal and “good neighbour” responsibility as a planetary member to contribute to shifting to a new way where we are truly all one and equal. I have chosen to jump into the whole gender deal. I know I haven't fully explained how I think feminism supports that shift. I will try more later.
George, I would love to talk more directly about how you can suppport women as a coach via zaadz mail if you would like?
Z
Sure, what is zaadz mail? How does that work? Please do. Thanks.
(((((((((((((huggs))))))))))))
Love,
George :)
Wow!
I have been away for a few days. What a pleasant surprise to check in and catch up on this conversation! I really like both/and thinking because it quickly leads me to the multiplicity of views for any situation.
Owning what pushes our buttons and when we are triggered by others can be a challenge and take time to sort through. Like George, I was so excited to be part of a conversation about feminist theory and practice and specifically around the issue of violence against women that I forgot to step gently into our conversation and just waded in with all feminist colours flying! Possibly not the wisest approach to take:)
One of my feminist practices is to provide concise information about who I am so that it is easier to keep my biases in view (both for myself and others). This is why I began my post with a short blurb about myself…
Coming from a rural Canadian community and being the first member of my family to receive a university degree (while I raised two small children and worked at the same time) was something that I felt was important to acknowledge as it this specific experience and area of study influences my views about feminist theory and practice. However, with only Zoey having ever been in conversation with me in the past, I can see how my post could be received as well… uppity. I can assure you that was not my intention. Even so, I acknowledge that it may have been received that way. If I was in my home community, where still very few people have post-secondary education, I would have taken great care about how I presented this information because I might risk the chance for my listeners to hear what I was saying if there was even the slightest possibility that it could be interpreted that I felt that this made me “smarter” about something. In fact what I would more likely be risking is that I would be viewed as not having much common-sense at all because I spent all my time learning instead of engaging in the everyday practice of struggling to make a living through physical waged labour. These are some of the areas where I think class and gender rub can against each other in complex ways that can shift the analysis of both perspectives. It helps us understand that power dynamics have more than a male and female face.
I can sense that like me, others really want to have and continue to have these delightful conversations about gender and power and control yet they are complex views that we are inside of as well as attempting to analyze from outside. The threads must be pulled through our experience and then examined and rewoven into our thinking and ideas. Then when we try our new garment on for size we go “ewww, this doesn't fit very well” or someone else says “nope! not right yet!” So we go back and weave and cut and sew and put another idea on for awhile and see how that fits. We do this individual and collectively in what become an ever-changing tapestry of living, thinking and creating. Every thread is significant, every idea and perspective is significant. Yet, none are conclusive… this is one of the beauties of feminist work.
Thank you all for an opportunity to be part of this exchange as it has allowed me to engage again with ideas that shape who I am and my thinking…Special thanks Zoey for hosting our conversation:)
warmly,
Terrill
thanks all for the very clear and interesting communication and the capable way we all opened to hearing other's views.
Z
Thank you for this post. I work with domestic violence and sexual assault victims and I often run into this mindset when speaking with police or other authority figures. As a young feminist, I believe that the old feminist voice of anger and man-hating needs to be replaced. However, I also know that violence against women is still alive and well and we must SPEAK OUT !! I just think we need to speak out with love in our voices. As women, we are incredible at holding strong and standing up for ourselves, while at the same time nuruturing those around us. In my view, this is the new face of the feminist movement!
Thank you for hosting this discussion.
namaste,
Heather